Have you ever pondered the complexities of Cheyenne's history and the events leading up to the Battle of the Washita? You’re in for an educational journey as acclaimed author Dee Cordry unravels the intricate historical events of the Cheyenne and Arapaho tribes. Our conversation is packed with fascinating insights, from the skirmishes on Beaver Creek and the provocative raids on stage lines, railroads, and settlers to the significance of Hancock's War, as discussed in the Edmond Guerrier Story. We also delve into the Medicine Lodge Treaty of October 21, 1867, which ignited a trail of repercussions.
We then traverse the terrain of Cheyenne warfare and leadership during the raids on white settlements in Kansas in 1868. Presented through the expert lens of Dee Cordry, you'll gain a fresh understanding of the role of the dog soldiers, Tall Bull's defiance of the Medicine Lodge Treaty, and the subsequent raid on Black Kettle's village. This conversation brings to light the misunderstandings that existed between the US Army and the Cheyenne tribes, offering a comprehensive understanding of these significant historical events. So, join us in this enlightening exploration as we unravel the threads of Cheyenne history. For those who would like to further their knowledge of the Legacy of the Cheyenne people, we highly recommend you select the link provided in this podcast to purchase Dee's book "Children of White Thunder, Legacy of a Cheyenne Family 1830-2020."
At this time we would like to introduce to you D Cordray. He is the author of Children of White Thunder, legacy of a Cheyenne family 1830 to 2020. He is a noted public speaker and subject matter expert on the Cheyenne and Arapaho history. Among his book credits he is also authored a live if possible, dead if necessary, deadly business Chronicles of Oklahoma, outlaw and Lawman Map of Oklahoma and the editor of the Oklahoma's Journal. He has participated in many on-air interviews, including Oklahoma Educational Television Authority documentaries, stateline Dead or Alive and Stateline Gangster Road Bank First TV, henry Star's Mistake and Woman of the Santa Fe Trail by Rocky Mountain PBS. The first and foremost, mike and I would like to congratulate you on your book making the finalist list for 2023 Oklahoma Book of the Year. Thank you, you're welcome. That's pretty exciting.
Speaker 2:
Well, I put a lot of work into the book and researched it, and so when I was notified that I was a finalist, oh boy, that was just very exciting. It's a pretty good deal Like it.
Speaker 1:
Well, congratulations and best wishes on that. Moving forward, can you tell us a little bit about your newest book Children of White Thunder Legacy of a Cheyenne Family 1830 to 2020, and what motivated you to write it?
Speaker 2:
A gentleman that I worked with at the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation, Harvey Pratt, is Cheyenne Arapaho, and he began to tell me stories about his great-grandfather, Edmund Garrier, and great-grandmother Julia Bent Garrier, and that Julia Bent was the daughter of William Bent of Bent Fort in southeast Colorado and that she was also a granddaughter of White Thunder, the keeper of the sacred medicine arrows. So next thing, you know, I was just captivated, did some research off and on, just out of curiosity. One thing led to another and suddenly I thought, well, I'm going to need to write a book about the Garriers. And then I found out that I really couldn't tell their story without telling the stories of all of these events that happened that they were present at or had firsthand knowledge of, like the Sand Creek Massacre. So I worked on that for a long time and in 2022, I really jumped in, prepared everything, published it on Amazon. People like it.
Speaker 1:
The newest podcast series, trails to the Washitaugh, provides our listeners with events leading up to the Battle of the Washitaugh. Part two of this podcast series, entitled Skirmish on Beaver Creek, introduced several factors attributing to the Indian raids on stage lines, railroads and settlers during the spring and summer of 1868. In one of our earlier podcasts on Hancock's War, entitled the Edmund Garrier Story, we highlight another factor attributing to the Indian raids. In the Garrier podcast we tell how Hancock, in the spring of 1867, led a large expedition across Kansas and confronted the Cheyenne and Sioux at their villages on the Pawnee Fork River. As a result, they fled their villages. As Custer was sent in pursuit, hancock burned their villages, destroying their lodges and supplies. D. In chapter five of your book you write about this incident in detail. D can you tell our listeners why the incident at Pawnee Fork may have been the most important reason for the raids of 1867 and 68, and what tribal leaders were at Pawnee Fork at that time?
Speaker 2:
A couple of words that we should consider concerning Pawnee Fork is confrontation and confusion. When Hancock's expedition arrived at Fort Larnad, the Cheyenne chief chained at his request and visited with him. This included Romanos and Tall Bull and Bull Bear and other prominent Cheyennes. Hancock informed them that he was going to lead his expedition to their village on Pawnee Fork. They said no. The villagers had real concerns about an attack similar to the Sand Creek massacre 23 years previously, but Hancock did it anyway and it created a confrontation.
Speaker 2:
Another important thing to understand is confusion. This is in 1867. In 1865, the Cheyenne had signed the Treaty of the Little Arkansas that created a reservation for them that was on the south side of the Arkansas River and according to Fork, they were not on the south side, they were just north of the Arkansas River. So when Hancock came to that village they were not on their reservation. However, one of the provisions in the Treaty of the Little Arkansas Article 3, permitted them to front between the Arkansas and the Platte River. So consider that there was a lot of confusion here on the part of the Cheyenne as to what they were allowed to do and not to do, and also on the part of Hancock as to whether or not they were on their reservation and what they were allowed to do and not to do. I think that's pretty important.
Speaker 2:
Some of the tribal leaders that were present at Pawnee Fork were, in particular, leaders of the dog soldiers, which included Paul Bull and Bull, bear and Romanos, and they were dog soldier leaders. Well, they were the last people in the world that Hancock should have confronted or been confrontational with. They're the dog soldiers, so inevitably this resulted in conflict and then when the villagers fled, hancock had the villages burned. Well, that had a huge impact on the Cheyenne and it didn't go away. This contributed to the continued hostilities.
Speaker 1:
Next, I would like to explore the Medicine Lodge Treaty of October 21, 1867, which occurred 70 miles south of Fort Launard in the state of Kansas, between the United States of America, represented by its commissioners, and the Kiowa, Comanche and Apache Indians, represented by their chiefs and headmen, duly authorized and empowered to act for the body of the people of said tribes.
Speaker 1:
At the end of the Medicine Lodge Treaty, Captain Barnett of the Seventh Cavalry, who was present during the treaty signing, wrote in his journal Appoignant Entry regarding all that had transpired. In late October, After the council, the Cheyennes were, with great difficulty, persuaded to sign the treaty. They were superstitious in regard to touching the pen or perhaps suppose that by doing so they would be signing away their rights, which is doubtless the true state of affairs, as they have no idea that they are giving up, or that they had ever given up, the country which they claim as their own, the country north of the Arkanses. The treaty all amounts to nothing and we will certainly have another war sooner or later, with the Cheyennes at least, and probably with other Indians, in consequence of misunderstanding of the terms of present and previous treaties. Can you tell us more about the Barnett's statement and why he felt compelled to record this poignant entry into his journal.
Speaker 2:
Barnett was an experienced army officer and for him to write this in his journal is extraordinary and it just illustrates how significant this portion of the Medicine Lodge Peace Council was. When he in effect stepped forward in state how reluctant the Cheyennes were to sign this treaty. It's just extraordinary and it really demonstrates what kind of officer he was.
Speaker 1:
So the government representatives of the Peace Commission at Medicine Lodge were high-ranking US senators and military leaders. They explained to the Indians that both sides would agree to certain things by signing the treaty. The Indians would be protected from the White Hunters. They would be provided with schools, churches and farming tools. They would receive food and clothing every year. They would be taught the White Man's way of living. Farmers would come and live with them and teach them how to plow. The plains would no longer be one big reservation divided among the tribes. Instead, all the Indians would move to their own reservation. All of the reservations would be in the Indian nations. This was in the western part of present-day Oklahoma. The Indians had to agree to give up all of their rights to their native lands. Did all of the tribes agree to sign the treaty, and who among the tribes spoke against it and why?
Speaker 2:
The Medicine Lodge Treaty is a complicated topic. It's complicated to discuss all of the details, but there's a few important things to understand. Paul Bull, one of the leaders of the dog soldiers, signed the Medicine Lodge Treaty on behalf of the Cheyenne. Other dog soldier leaders like Romanos did not sign, so that illustrates the conflict of opinion within the tribe over signing this treaty. Another thing to consider is this In 1867, the land south of the Kansas border, which is where this new Medicine Lodge Treaty Reservation was located, is known as the Cherokee Outlet, or sometimes referred to as the Cherokee Strip, and this was a piece of land that belonged to the Cherokee Nation.
Speaker 2:
It belonged to the Cherokee Nation in 1867, and they leaked this land to cattlemen for almost another 20 years. But the US government gave that land to the Cheyenne Arapaho as a reservation, and so the question can be asked was this proper, or did the US government even have the right to give that land to the Cheyenne Arapaho when it belonged to the Cherokee Nation? There was again this confusion over did they have the right to hunt north of the Arkansas River? Well, it's not written in the treaty, but several historians have written that Senator Henderson made them a verbal promise that they could hunt north of the Arkansas, just like what was written in the previous treaty, the Treaty of the Little Arkansas, in 1865.
Speaker 1:
In the summer and fall of 1868, the plains tribes continued their raiding activities between the Arkansas and Platte Rivers in the region of their best buffalo hunting Bands of Cheyenne and Arapaho. Indians conducted raids against whites throughout the western Great Plains in Kansas. One of Sheridan's aggressions was the September intrusion of a 50-man scouting force under Major George A Forsythe into the Cheyenne Sioux country of the Upper Republican River. It resulted in the classic Battle of Beecher's Island in which the famous warrior Roman knows was killed. The dog soldiers under Bull Bear, tall Bull and White Horse were involved in the affair. The combined Cheyenne Arapaho Sioux force, however, found it too costly to overrun the scouts who had taken up positions on a small island in the Erikarri branch of the Republican. Can you give our listeners some insight into the role of the dog soldiers and why they felt a need to continue raids against the white settlements in Kansas?
Speaker 2:
Well, let's take a look at a few factors involved here. When these raids were taking place in the time period that you describe, they were raids conducted by them in response to actions that they perceived to be provocations against them. We also might consider noting the difference between a battle between Cheyenne combatants and US Army combatants, such as at Beecher's Island, as opposed to raids by Cheyenne combatants against non-combatant white settlers. And then there's a third category where you have US Army combatants against Cheyenne non-combatants, which some historians might compare to Sand Creek or Pawnee Fork or Wachita. And then there's even another category of one tribe raiding another tribe, which happened during this time period, in the summer of 1868, when the Cheyenne leader, tall Bull, led a raid against the Caw in Kansas. This gives us a chance to look at these hostilities in a perhaps a more understandable way. Now, dog soldiers were a soldier society, a separate entity you might say. They weren't a band. They were one of the soldier societies within Cheyenne culture and they were performing the job that they always had.
Speaker 2:
They didn't answer to what we would consider a chain of command, the council of 44, the peace chiefs of the Cheyenne did not have the authority to tell the dog soldiers what to do, so the dog soldiers were acting somewhat independently on their own when these hostilities were taking place, but it may be that US Army didn't see it that way, and so they were going to consider all Cheyennes hostile, whether they were combatants or non-combatants.
Speaker 1:
Some historical references state that after the Battle of Beecher Island, tall Bull traveled north through eastern Colorado territory, leading his people to the Republican to find the bands that had not gone south for the winter. While Tall Bull's people camped near Beaver Creek, the fifth cavalry under Major Eugene Carr attacked them. A long, tiring fight ensued over many miles and with many skirmishes. The village lost many provisions and lodges. In retaliation, tall Bull led his warriors to the Smoky Hill where they continued their raids. Why was Tall Bull so reluctant to stay on the reservation and abide by the Medicine Lodge Treaty? Can you give us additional information on Tall Bull?
Speaker 2:
Tall Bull was quite an interesting person. He was everywhere. Tall Bull was involved in most of the significant events during this time period, especially the 1860s, up until his death at Summit Springs. He signed the Medicine Lodge Treaty. Yet he was a dog-stole soldier leader.
Speaker 2:
Tall Bull from that time period described him as an impressive figure and he was at Pawnee Fork. He was involved in so many things and so he had a lot of influence, and when the Medicine Lodge Treaty was signed he was one of them that signed it. He may have not understood that the permission to hunt and and range north of the Arkansas was not written in the Medicine Lodge Treaty. That may have been agreed to verbally, so he may have been confused, like a lot of them probably were. However, his primary activity was Rating. There's no doubt about that, and his reluctance to Go to the reservation the Medicine Lodge Treaty reservation, or to stay on the reservation, probably has to do with this conflict is he's a dog soldier leader, signed the Medicine Lodge Peace Treaty and Apparently was caught in between In 1868 the Cheyenne were declared hostile by General Philip Sheridan, who forces were marching against the tribes at the very moment Black Kettle in his band sought a winter sanctuary along the banks of the Washita River in Indian Territory.
Speaker 1:
It was widely known that Black Kettle played a prominent role in attempts to maintain peace. Still at the time he had little control over the dog soldier because he was a chief of the Council of 44, which had nothing to do with a soldier society. In your research, do you believe that if the US government had a better understanding of the role of Black Kettle and the structure of the Cheyenne tribes May have prevented the November 27th 1868 raid on his village?
Speaker 2:
I believe that we should consider the answer yes, if there had been a more clear understanding. Now. The US Army had scout and interpreters, many of them had Parents who were also white and and also Cheyenne, and the scouts and interpreters should have known, understood that part of Cheyenne culture, of whether they were able to relay that information accurately to the Army officers, the we don't know. The information was probably available but maybe it just wasn't taken seriously. But in the end the Army Determined that they were going to conduct a campaign during the winter and they were going to target these Cheyenne and Arapahoe villages to force them back onto this medicine lodge treaty reservation when black kettle was camped on the Washita River Was not on that reservation but not by much On the Washita River. They were a few miles south of the Cimarron which was the southern boundary of that medicine lodge treaty reservation. But again, they may not have understood that.
Speaker 1:
Historians have stated that the trail that led to black kettle's camp on the Washita had been made by dog soldiers raiding white settlements and made their way to the Washita camp, and Custer wanted to follow their trail. In a letter written to Libby Custer while in camp on Beaver Creek, 100 miles from Fort Dodge, custer writes the following on November 21st 1868, the day that we reached here, we crossed a fresh trail of a large war party going north. I Sent our Indian scouts to follow it a short distance to determine the strength and direction of the party. The guides all report the trail of a war party going northeast and that they evidently have just come from the village, which must be located within 50 miles of us in a southerly direction.
Speaker 1:
Had the Kansas volunteers been here, as was expected, my orders would then have allowed me to follow the back trail of the war party Right to their village, and we would have found the latter in an unprotected state as their warriors had evidently gone north, either to Larnet or Zara or to fight the Osage or Ka Indians who are now putting up their winter meat. We did not encounter an Indian coming to this last point, which proves that our campaign was not expected by them. Tonight, six scouts start for dodge with our mail and dispatches for headquarters. In your research, what have you discovered concerning the trail leading to black kettles camp and why black kettle became the target for Custer's November 27th 1868 raid?
Speaker 2:
The trail described in that letter by Custer is very interesting. There's a lot going on in that letter and now let's let's examine it. He described a trail that's headed from the south to the north and specifically described how this war party headed north left a undefended village to the south. He knew right then, or had plenty of reason to understand, that that village on the Wachita would be undefended or that there wouldn't be very many warriors there to protect it. Now he got into an argument with General Sully because he wanted to. He wanted to follow that trail south right then, but Sully disagreed and he didn't follow that trail right then.
Speaker 2:
Now, another interesting thing about this letter is he described how the war party that was headed north might have been headed for some fort or the Osage or the Caus tribe, and this just again. This brings up this interesting differentiation that these warriors may have been headed for other Indian tribes as targets, the scouts on the expedition, custer's Scouts. They already knew the location of Black Kettle's village further south on the Wachita River and then, when Custer led an expedition, headed towards the Wachita and followed a trail. Well, there were numerous villages on the Wachita River, not just Black Kettle's village. So the trail that the expedition was following may have led to any of those villages along the Wachita River. Therefore, we might possibly consider that Black Kettle's village was not the specific target.
Speaker 1:
We thank you, dave, for participating in our series on the trails to the Wachita. For those who would like to further their knowledge on the legacy of the Cheyenne people, we highly recommend you select a link provided in this podcast to purchase Dave's book Children of White Thunder Legacy of a Cheyenne Family 1830 to 2020.
Speaker 2:
Brad, thank you and Mike very much for listening to some of my comments. I'm just very thankful to you and I'm glad to participate.
Speaker 1:
It's been a joy, Toghania. I've loved your responses, all the research you've done, the answers. You clearly have put a lot of thought into working to this. I'm super excited to actually grab ahold of your book personally and read that myself. So thank you very much. Sounds good. That's it for now. Remember to check out our Wild West Podcast shows on iTunes or wildwestpodcastbusproutcom. You can also catch us on Facebook at facebookcom slash Wild West Podcast or on our YouTube channel at Wild West Podcast Mike King YouTube. So make sure you subscribe to our shows listed at the end of the description text in this podcast to receive notifications on all new episodes. Thanks for listening to our podcast. If you have any comments or want to add to our series, please write us at wildwestpodcastcom. We will share your thoughts as they apply to future episodes. Stay tuned next time as we bring you Part 3, Trails to the Washitaugh Camp, Sandy Forsythe.